Is Beckwithamas the new Bushitler?). I would like to know why you find it more unreasonable to go to the disciple of the disciple of the one chosen by Christ himself than to take a route never spoken of by Christ or the Bible, and just confess to God by yourself. I will not claim to be friends with him, but I have met him in real life and he is the real deal just a good person. Cuneiform Tablets 4. Since when is it anyones duty to prove innocence? Esau, you contradict yourself. The third is that both have slung mud. the mindset that occasioned those abuses You cannot conclude a UNIVERSAL from a PARTICULAR. so should you all, including James White] Call it a red herring, jumping the shark, ad hominum (where the hominum is the Body of Christ), or what have you. Benigne dicis. Ignore my above complaint. To those who think that the actions here are proving Whites point with the images, you need to look at recent events. Its easy to come across badly in writing because you cant see their facial expressions like you can in person if they werte talking to you. It was your imagination which took off on a tangent as you erroneously presumed I was arguing something I wasnt. Churchmouse??? Not White he is not the enemy but the one who delights in turning a Christian man who defends the Triune God and the Lord Jesus against enemies of the faith against Jesus own holy Church. Everyone who is joined to Christ is under the obligation, the call, to stimulate one another to love and good deeds. The Book of Jehu[14] If I somehow hurt your feelings than Esau should have pages more written about him because he has intentionally argued fallaciously, i.e. I believe in free will I make my own choices We just dont believe that it each of us is free to interpret every word that it contains. This is DISHONEST folks! Everybody knows that thinking people express themselves with cat macros. Dear All, He united China through conquest, began the Great Wall of China, and had the Terra Cotta warriors built. Reminds me of Bilbo talking to Smaug. Jeremiah, He was not amused at all and later ripped me up on his no comment blog. We can trust the canon mediated because of Gods promise of the effectual mediation of Gods Word. Humbly, I offer a contrary opinion. Re: the photo mentioned above that Dave Armstrong posted; he apologized for it and replaced it. I said that it was pointless to discuss with people who thought that what James White did with those cartoons was defensible. Thats all very interesting, and Im sure God knows whos winning the ad hominem war, but it bores me to tears and I have no time for it. We are to forgive not just 7 timesremember those words? 1. 1) James White is critical of Dr. Beckwith. His conversion story, "A Triumph and a Tragedy," is published in Surprised by Truth. that should read White antagonistic to Catholics although in an autoimmune sort of way, I suppose you could say hes antagonistic to himself. Perhaps I was too subtle. Adam Allow me to accentuate the latter part of your comments: The judge who sits in the courthouse can forgive people after theyve been punished even if the punished have not changed. White makes some sophisticated-looking objections about something one of his interlocutors has said or done. Whites posted pictures should be(have been) over (long ago), in my opinion, unless there is anyone here who would care to go further in the analysis than I. Im not seeing how Im supposed to conclude there is a conspiracy or that it would be neccessary to accuse the Roman Catholic apologetics community of anything. Therefore, there will be that many fewer OSAS Protestants and the likelihood that they will perish in Hell for not accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior (as per the normative forms of the OSAS). Ah, you are looking the wrong way. Fallacious though that may sound. For example, one may be saved as a Baptist, but not as a Bahai (spelling error wantonly ignored) because the religion denies the divinity of Christ. What Does a Christian Need to Know About Roman Catholicism? The images were speaking toward an analogous attitude; namely, a fomented zealotry fueled by uninformed passion (which his subsequent post substantiated). God did use the church, the gathered body (not later ecclesiastical developments regarding unbiblical structures and positions), as a means to establish widespread knowledge of the canon (mediated) so that Scripture will function as He has decreed it to function. 4. Youll get that casuistry degree yet. The simple fact is: Jimmy is willing to be cross-examined in public on his own blog But all available evidence is that inconsistency has nothing to do with his annoyance. I didnt really get his analogy, carebear. because it is Gods revelation and His authority and he does not share or mediate that authority ever. (ps, I go by Mary Kay. Because I dont really think its worth the time. Esau, thanks but I think you were well-spoken here. All this depends on whether you draw the line at liturgy, church hierarchy, the definition of salvation, the efficacy of grace, and the role of human free will. Cant find (or am too lazy to find) the start of the arguement on forgiveness and exactly who is being discussed (White?) To do a thorough job would take time far beyond this combox and as I am not a sociologist of humor, I would certainly want to consult Christie Davies in England (he is not Catholic, so there could be no charge of bias), because he is a sociologist of humor and would have a better handle on that aspect of things. Can you imagine trying to market the Church of Trent in the modern context? Ugliness that comes from misuse of religion is particularly tricky. Perhaps. etc. Interesting that White is presents himself as so learned and yet is either unaware of or above basic human psychology. But its rather annoying when com-boxers ask Why has no one addressed my argument? The actual point is that White posted an asinine photoshop making an asinine comparison between his Catholic opponents and violence-threatening Islamofascist fanatics. Except that Bob also said: So neener, neener, I won and everyone else should back me up. therefore God will protect the writings(artifact) and ensure that the canon of the writings is complete. If anyone wants to discuss the matter of the humor in Dr. Whites picture in a serious and polite manner, please, feel free to e-mail me. Prove his actions offensive and Ill recant. When did you authoritatively establish what His revelation is? He (Dr Beckwith) repeatedly (two out of three aint bad) left his readers/listeners with the distinct impression that he had not read Trent until recently and insulted his former Lutheran professors by indicating they had led him to expect: to read this sort of horrible document, you know, requiring people to stick pins in their eyes, you know, and flagellate themselves, you know, one) have in fact already made the determination. I snatched it up, opened it, and read in silence the chapter on which my eyes first fell. I do not believe that adherents of Tell me did James White even deal with the issues? . We deserve it! Purely in terms of strategy, he must know that this is hurting his cause among both his co-religionists and those he presumably seeks to woo from the One True Church. I cant say that I have (not that Im an authority, and Id be happy to learn otherwise). I dont see that were taught to forgive only those who repent. If White really thought he had done something wrong, he would apologize, because Ive seen him do it with the Caner Debate Debacle. But just as He is prepared to forgive, so are we to be so prepared. No one less pure, less true, less kind, less noble for having been a fellow traveler in our journey toward eternal life), it would be harder to score points against us in this fashion. Have you heard the other side of the story? As Ive stated previously: This was one of the hardest parts for me in my conversion. This was implied in the paraphrase of the Westminster Shorter Catechism, where Gods revelation is understood to be contained in full in the Old and New Testament. We can natter on about category errors and suchlike, all the while stating what a fitting comparison the individual in question made. So whos got the guts to step up and make the call next Tuesday? important in this universe than the purity of God's Words. Ive backed up every single one of my accusations, blatantly going against the grain of the general tone around here. A couple of other points just briefly. Who would go through through the expense of buying a domain name to lead others to Catholic Answers? God can do as He pleases. $55. First you say hes judging James White to be innocent, then you say hes assuming his innocence. I believe they would have believed in Sola Scriptura. So God will providentially preserve the Scriptures and lead His people to a functional, sufficient knowledge of the canon so as to fufill His purposes in inspiring them, and he provide a mechanism for doing just thatthe Church. A word to CareBear (since you seem to want to speak to matters of logic often times): the logic of humor is about three times harder to understand than anything you are likely to have seen, even if you were to be a professional logician, so, if I have made what you consider to be any logical mistakes in my presentation here, spare me the analysis. I read through a lot of these posts and didnt see anyone interact with Dr. Whites positions. Just curious For example, you can choose any other kind of flower that is your favorite, or other colours that match better with your vibe. Ive been trying to explain to you the Catholic position (to the best of my ability, such as it is) on various issues. Greg McR, *high fives everyone in the room* Jessica if you feel a need to forgive myself and the host of this site for being Catholic, go for it. As far as the actual issue at work (come on, ignore the silly pictures), White is a real nitpicker. JAMES GALLERY. Only He knows all of the facts. No, because Romanists go straight to Hell where they belong, didnt you already know that??? Are you sure youre in the Vast Angelwing Conspiracy? But that said, take his substance as substance. Why dont you read the writings of the early church fathers for yourself and try to explain why prominent in the early church was the Eucharist, the Real Presence, Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, among other things Catholic? For the most popular and easy proof is by parallel; and here there is no parallel. 18:18) God Bless, Do Catholics get better seats in heaven than the Protestants? Finally, he throws up his hands and says that this is the latest in a long series of DA apologized for the picture and pulled it from his site. Or how silly and pathetic it is? I know I dont always). If you want the general impression of the posters on this site to be like that then have at er. The Revelation of Zephaniah The best thing to do is to let go and just not respond. A rash assumption, but perhaps hell handle it later in the next paragraph? He has authored or contributed to more than twenty four books, including The King James Only Controversy, The Forgotten Trinity, The Potters Freedom, and The God Who Justifies. Ive yet to hear James White claim that he DIDNT post those pictures. Protestant Evangelicals disagree with each other on infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, church government, womens ordination, the sacraments (their number or if there are any), whether one can lose his salvation, whether God is in or out of time, whether God knows the future, whether the Trinity is social or substantially unified, whether Jesus could have sinned, whether or not in the incarnation the Word gave up his divine attributes, eschatology, whether or not covenant theology is correct, monergysm, synergysm, amil, postmil, the Sabbath, premil, post-trib, mid-trb, no-trib, pre-trib, and the perpetuity of spiritual gifts. I chose this because it was handy.]. I dont often myself because it usually gives off more heat than light in this format. I do not need to address any of the theological issues you wish addressed or asked for an answer to in this thread, because neither I nor anyone else was asked to do so in this thread. I really dont know how to respond to this one, as Im laughing a bit too hard. Do you mean Mary Kay? I cannot believe that Christians are defending those caricatures of Catholics as insane people who, if they disagree with you would riot, and cause physical harm to you. It says CY has only 426. here. What you define as sacralism, the confusion between and effective melding of church and state is a Protestant and Orthodox phenomenon. While you believe that they would have taken to transubstantiation, I believe that they would have believed in Sola Scriptura. Even with that many lines, the design is actually quite simple and clean. Mary: That many people cant all be wrong absent a huge conspiracy and at this point it seems more charitable to believe that White really is rather off-putting than to conclude that all his opponents are in some sort of sinister league with each other. Well, there is that. And, CareBear, please dont make this out to an INFOMERCIAL FOR JAMES WHITE by AGAIN DODGING the question by the silly, evasive response: You are wrong about me judging Dr Beckwiths thoughts BTW. Please Father, give Theo Your strength to do what he himself cannot do. Christians are called to charity, above all else. But I will reveal the truth to you: Its too late to save James White. Whites parting shots are: He also leads Apologias ministry, End Abortion Now, whose goal is to criminalize and end abortion through the work of the local church and state legislation. They were very cordial with eachother. He received a BA from Grand Canyon College, an MA from Fuller Theological Seminary, and a Th.M., a Th.D. Does the Bible come with an owners manual? Ok, if hes full of hot air, why? Thats something I never denied, but, in fact, thats the reason I posted. Mary Kay- I dont think it will work, since the guy keeps on misusing units of logic at whim. Perhaps the example of the schoolyard bully whos parents can never admit their little Johny could ever do anything wrong would have been less offensive but the point would be the same. Its typically the duty of the accuser to prove guilt. I once posted a blog about the illogic of sola scriptura It is wrong to do evil that good may come of it. When I have my employees in office, my goal is to address fully, the items on the agenda. the ediface of his argument is an illusion, I apologize to everyone for the long post, but CareBear seems to wish that the quotations from Mr. White be addressed. Considering his peers here though he is heads and shoulders above them. That dissolves to blindly accepting whatever one is told, without reference to the conscience God gave to every human individual, as individuals. The importance of sola scriptura can be seen when men who thought they held to it begin moving away from it, and express their newfound objections. Given that the comment was made the intention of injecting levity, it can be forgiven, right? And the illogic of sola scriptura is so simple: Its not in the scriptures. Do they not apply, or are you choosing to ignore them in order to post another gotcha! by claiming that were not responding? But for those who don't know him, he is a world-renowned apologist who serves as the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a Christian apologetics organization based in Phoenix, Arizona. When we return evil for evil, as we sometimes do, rather than overcoming evil with good, we give aid and comfort to the enemy. This is a little not nice, but: Clark Im not interested in buying any bridges. And there are a few on both sides who have not descended, either. This is why the same man who wants you to call him Dr. when he doesnt have a real doctorate, wants you to declare his photo-shopped pics humorous when anyone with good sense will see that they are borne of animus and not levity. 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